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Karl Loren |
The original, from Bill, is in black.
Karl's response is in blue
Bill's further response is in red
-----Original Message-----
From: melendb [mailto:melendb@flash.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:56 AM
To: Karl Loren
Subject: Comments about your "Killing stones" article
Hello Karl:
It pleases me to see that you came thorough in your promise to answer your readers e-mail. My wife got a kick from reading your answer to my note. Now that I am more familiar with your philosophy and strategy, I can start using your language. If I was to guess, I would say that she is choosing to act stupid, in killing herself slowly. I think she understand the message of life that you and I are communicating to her.
Well, Bill,
I'm married to a smoker!!!
Karl, it is said that the universe puts people in our paths as a life lesson to be learned. It is too bad that the lesson plan is not part of this deal, forcing us to figure it out as we go.
There is a special closeness to God amongst those who can grant beingness to others, generally, and in particular to grant beingness to those who are very different.
This is what keeps me engaged and motivated. It is the humanism in me that propels me to allow those around me to be, and to investigate why they are different from me. My education is in engineering, but I get joy in establishing relationships and exploring the human psyche.
Scroll down for my comments about your comments. And by the way, thank you for the warning about getting addicted to this. The day that I feel "compelled" to write to you, is the day that I would not be mindful, and therefore, I will be doing, rather than being. I tried very hard, sometimes unsuccessful, to not let this happen.
However, when I hear things like: "I do not drink water because it taste bad, then right there she is putting sensation above survival. Do not get me wrong, I am not giving up on her, but it is good to be fully aware of the true nature of the beast.
[Karl Loren] When I see MY words in use I am not sure if you found them on my page or had them independently.
These are indeed your words, or what I call your "language". The thoughts, of course, were in me, exppresed or unexpressed in some other fashion. This is why I find your work so stimulating. It gives me language to exppress my thoughts.
My article on diet talks a lot about the desire for sensation -- and I have about 60 pages on the importance of drinking more water in another place.
I read these pages.
I just finished reading your article about killing stones. It speaks to me because it is another way of talking about self responsiblity and root cause analysis. Ah, the many times that I heard my mother talk about how RUM destroyed her father's life. So, you and I see eye to eye on this topic.
I am very comfortable in how you set up your arguments or thesis. One thing I am very particular about is definitions and distinctions. It brings the parties of a conversations to a level in which it is possible to have agreement. Also, it facilitates for the discipline to modify or reissue any definition if we discover that it is incomplete, or no longer applicable due to a change in circumstances.
I would like to invite you to consider ways we can improve your definition for life. In your article, you defined it as:
Life: The presence of some non material essence within matter which allows that matter to become alive and without which that matter is dead; the essence, within matter, which causes that group of atoms and molecules to become organized into a life unit with the capability of metabolism, independent motion, reaction to stimuli, reproduction and thought.
Take a look at the words that I bold faced. In my years of academic instruction, I learned that we must avoid using the word that we are trying to define, it its definition.
[Karl Loren] Yes, absolutely. I refer to that as a circular definition. But, it is also possible to define a word, at least in part, by giving its antonym, as well as synonyms. As long as these are not the only forms of definition, they can help a lot.
Agree, as long as we are mindful that this is what we are doing.
A better form of definition is one that describes the nature of its causation, or its function.
As long as the thing being defined has a functin of course.
"A chair is made to sit on."
"A hammer is used to pound nails."
Alive, dead, and life are forms of the word life, which you are trying to define. Alive and life are self-explanatory. Dead is the absence of Life. Presupposing that you agree with the aforementioned argument, then my suggestion would be to modify your definition in the following way:
Life: The presence of some non material essence within matter, which allows that matter to become organized into a unit with the capability of metabolism, independent motion, reaction to stimuli, reproduction and thought.
Your thoughts please?
[Karl Loren] I like it, other than there is value in antonyms and synonyms.
Agree.
Now that I have a "terminal of comparable magnitude" to discuss these things, perhaps we can go on?I would then further refine/define "life" as:
Life: The causative agent over matter, energy, space and time. Life involves "something" which is non-material that organizes matter and energy into an organism which is then called "alive," and which organism shows the properties of metabolism, independent motion, reaction to stimuli and reproduction. At all times the only causative agent is life. Life of a cell is similar to but independent from life of the human body. The "essence of life" can depart a human body, while individual cells will live a while -- but the human is considered dead, or not alive. The essence of life has been called "soul" but that word is so poorly understood that we will not use that word -- but we can go on to describe other characteristics of "life," to include the ability to be the causative agent over matter, energy, space and time without, itself, occupying matter, energy, space or time. "Thought" is a peculiar characteristic of life and for any human person the "thinking process" is always independent of the matter and energy of the body -- being completely the non-material creation of life. Life, of course, does not end, and has no beginning, leaving aside the common misconception that a human body is life.
Yes, I see you have been thinking about this. I like everything. My only comments is related to "thought". Are you able to entertain the case in which a person is alife, but not able to think? Right now I can only see ephemeral glimpses of how deep this can get, but something tells me that you have been there.
Well, Bill, you can add to or comment on that, but if you would like a challenge, find a definition of "seed" that fits with the above. (Perhaps I already wrote about that in the article? I don't recall.)
Let me think to see if I want to engage this challenge. Until then,
Bill
I warn you that this can become addictive!Regards,
Karl
Be well,
Bill
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